W8 and the metro/start menu GUI discussion

[Herman]

The problem I have with Windows 8 is it doesn't bring anything meaningful in terms of OS improvement. It changes a lot of things just for the sake of changing them and calling it new. It destroys productivity for me, having to switch to an unintuitive screen with weird shortcuts just to start a new program. Metro is a big waste of time to me, it should have stayed on mobile platforms only, because that's where it belongs. They could just as easily have given the user the choice of "touch experience" (Metro) vs "keyboard and mouse experience" (Desktop and Explorer with start menu) upon creating a user profile, and made both capable of running Metro apps. But no, they just HAD to force it down everyone's throat, knowing full well that OEM vendors will ship new PCs with Windows 8 no matter what the users really want.

You may not think "one click" is that much of a deal, but in reality it's having to repeat that one click 500 times a day. Having to switch between two completely different and visually disconnected UI environments 500 times a day. It's boring and useless. Most games developers have understood that a long time ago, and the best HUDs are the ones that give you everything you need while being as discrete as possible. Nothing should distract you from your actual work, it should just be right there when you need it, and Apple has understood that a long time ago, for example.

Metro is the return of the dreaded Program Manager, but with shiny paint and baubles.

 

[jmcilhinney]

The problem I have with Windows 8 is it doesn't bring anything meaningful in terms of OS improvement. It changes a lot of things just for the sake of changing them and calling it new. It destroys productivity for me, having to switch to an unintuitive screen with weird shortcuts just to start a new program. Metro is a big waste of time to me, it should have stayed on mobile platforms only, because that's where it belongs. They could just as easily have given the user the choice of "touch experience" (Metro) vs "keyboard and mouse experience" (Desktop and Explorer with start menu) upon creating a user profile, and made both capable of running Metro apps. But no, they just HAD to force it down everyone's throat, knowing full well that OEM vendors will ship new PCs with Windows 8 no matter what the users really want.

You may not think "one click" is that much of a deal, but in reality it's having to repeat that one click 500 times a day. Having to switch between two completely different and visually disconnected UI environments 500 times a day. It's boring and useless. Most games developers have understood that a long time ago, and the best HUDs are the ones that give you everything you need while being as discrete as possible. Nothing should distract you from your actual work, it should just be right there when you need it, and Apple has understood that a long time ago, for example.

Metro is the return of the dreaded Program Manager, but with shiny paint and baubles.

I can't agree with that. For a start, you don't have to perform that click 500 times a day. You have to perform it once. If you're entering the Modern UI to open a desktop application then running that desktop app will kick you back to the desktop automatically, so no click. I've actually found myself more productive because I now use a feature that was supported but I never used with the Start Menu: I press the Staret button on the keyboard and start typing the name of the app I want to run and, if required, use the down arrow to select the right one and hit Enter. That's quicker than navigating the Start Menu with the mouse.

As for "the return of the dreaded Program Manager", that's bollocks. Tiles on the Start Screen are just like shortcuts on the desktop except that the live content makes them better and the All Apps screen contains exactly what the Start Menu contained except that it's flattened out instead of hierarchical.

I certainly do accept that Windows 8/8.1 is not a huge step forward for desktop PCs, although there are some genuine improvements. It really comes into its own on touch-enabled devices though. I have a Dell XPS 12 which is a convertible ultrabook, so I use the touchscreen and the trackpad quite a bit. Windows 8/8.1 is a truly excellent OS on such a device.

I also accept that Microsoft did make some decisions for their own benefit and not for users. There's no doubt that they wanted the visibility of the Modern UI to drive sales of Windows tablets and similar devices. By giving users the same experience on multiple devices, including a very similar experience on Windows Phone, they hoped to keep users within the Windows ecosystem. Works for me.

I understand that not everyone will be as enthusiastic as I am but I maintain that far too many people have made far too much of a number of very small things. Your assertion that the Modern UI means 500 extra clicks a day is a case in point, because that's simply not true. Windows 8.1 goes a significant way to addressing most of those concerns anyway, so I strongly recommend checking it out. As for the Start Menu, if you use the inbuilt search then you'll be more productive without it, so I don't really see that anyone can claim that it's passing is a genuinely bad thing. More like something new that they're not prepared to deal with.

 

[Herman]

Well the point is I don't want to have to learn a new interface just because Microsoft says so. I'm not going to install Windows 8.1, as 8 was a waste of time, and offers nothing to me that I don't have in 7, which is stable as rock and has no bull**** gimmicks. If they do the same crap in 9 or whatever comes next, I will keep using 7, and I know I am not alone, and in the end THEY lose, because it slows down the adoption rate of Metro apps. They just should give you the choice not force it on you.

 

[jmcilhinney]

Well the point is I don't want to have to learn a new interface just because Microsoft says so. I'm not going to install Windows 8.1, as 8 was a waste of time, and offers nothing to me that I don't have in 7, which is stable as rock and has no bull**** gimmicks. If they do the same crap in 9 or whatever comes next, I will keep using 7, and I know I am not alone, and in the end THEY lose, because it slows down the adoption rate of Metro apps. They just should give you the choice not force it on you.

Obviously you have the right to stick with Windows 7 and I'm quite sure that you're correct that you're not the only one, but don't you see the contradiction in what you just posted? If Microsoft gave you the choice in Windows 8+ of not using the Modern UI then you wouldn't, right? Surely then the best way to speed the uptake of Modern UI apps is to force people to at least be exposed to them. From that perspective at least, your argument makes no sense at all. As for giving you the choice, I bet there were people saying that about Program Manager back in 1995. That's not the way the commercial world works. Do you maintain backward compatibility with every feature in every one of your apps, just in case some of your users want it? I know I don't and I don't know anyone who does, and our software is a lot less complex than Windows.

 

[Herman]

The point is I cannot run Metro apps on Windows 7. Had they just given the choice to everyone, I could use Windows 8, and wouldn't have to deal with their flavor of the month ugly UI. We're not talking about insane software engineering either, it's a simple choice of shell. Metro or Explorer. [EDIT: Apparently I could technically do what Microsoft didn't want to do themselves in a half hour with dirty hacks, so I get even less the point of forcing it now...]

In any case it's not really a matter of being backward-compatible (because Win8 IS backwards compatible with Win7 apps), it's the fact that they are forcing me to use it by holding back technology unless I cave in and let them decide how I want to work.

If Microsoft gave you the choice in Windows 8+ of not using the Modern UI then you wouldn't, right? Surely then the best way to speed the uptake of Modern UI apps is to force people to at least be exposed to them.

I find this interesting... Shouldn't that ring a bell at Microsoft by itself? I wonder if they did a large scale poll how many would answer the same. (EDIT: Here is a somewhat insignificant one, and another one more significant; pretty conclusive...). Second, this is doing the exact opposite of forcing me to be exposed to them, I will NOT be exposed to them since I can't run them. Maybe if I had the choice, I would have seen a nicely designed app somewhere that would have changed my mind about Metro and peeked my interest, maybe even switch to it, but now I won't, and none of the people for whom I fix up computers on weekends will either.

Anyways I think we've beaten this one to death... lol

 

[jmcilhinney]

If you use an OS then you're already letting them decide how you work. Did you decide to use the Start Menu in the first place or did Microsoft decide that for you? If Microsoft had gone straight to Modern UI from Windows 3.1 then there never would have been a Start Menu in the first place. I'm afraid I just see the whole "I'm not doing it because they're trying to make me" as rather childish. I use Windows 8 and now 8.1 every day on desktop PCs and barely use the Modern UI at all, especially now that 8.1 can boot straight to desktop. I've lost nothing, but you stick to those principles.

 

[Herman]

More like I'm not doing it just because they want me to. I guess I must be childish, along with 50%-70% (depending on the poll) of all the users...

Being childish is ignoring what customers want and shoving your own "truth" down their throat. The measure of childishness at Microsoft regarding Windows 8 is only surpassed by their own ego.

Also I don't remember anyone complaining about the start menu originally, because it actually improved productivity greatly and everyone wanted it. It was a natural evolution. Metro is nothing like that. Metro is like a Robert Rodriguez or David Lynch movie, all style and no substance. It's pretty to look at but dysfunctional. You wouldn't like ALL your TV to be David Lynch style.

Also as noted above, I just learned now that with some filthy hacks you can return to "normal" so with that in mind I might give it a try in a VM. I deleted my original Windows 8 RC VM originally thinking it was a joke.

 

[jmcilhinney]

Also I don't remember anyone complaining about the start menu originally, because it actually improved productivity greatly and everyone wanted it.

As I've said, you can be more productive finding applications to run by hitting the Windows key and typing a few letters. You could do this with the Start Menu too, although I never did. I do now. If increased productivity is what you want then there it is, so maybe, whether you rationalise it this way or not, you're more concerned with staying with something familiar and comfortable than improving productivity.

I know for a fact that there were factors involved with the introduction of Windows 8 other than what Microsoft thought their users wanted but I very much doubt that their own testing before it was released told them that 50-70% of people didn't like it. That backlash has come after the release and they've done something about it in Windows 8.1. No Start Menu, no, but you really don't need it. I'll wager that a large proportion of that 50-70% haven't used Windows 8 much if at all so they really aren't making an informed judgement.

Anyway, I've gone away from the topic of this thread so I'll not post on Windows 8 any further but I will say one more thing. If your concern is productivity then why is the fact that you find the Modern UI gaudy or whatever a factor? You barely have to touch it if you don't want to and even less so in Windows 8.1 so you hardly see it and hardly use it. I just can't see the valid argument.

 

[jmcilhinney]

I know I said that I wasn't going to say any more on Windows 8 but something occurred to me that I wanted to share. If Microsoft didn't make some bold choices on behalf of its users at times then this site wouldn't exist because we'd all still be using VB6 or some derivative of it or, as in my case, not using VB at all. Complaints that Microsoft should have let people choose whether to use the Start Menu or not sound a lot like what I've heard from a number of "abandoned" VB6 developers. I know that it's not quite the same thing but there are significant parallels.

 

[Herman]

I prefer knowing exactly where my apps are, not having to search for them in the first place. The whole thing hinges on immersion, when you break immersion you lose concentration. Exactly why (ironically) you cannot use any tablet or cellphone while driving, including Windows phones... Granted there is no injury involved here, but opening the damned start screen for me is too much. My desktop needs to be right there, at all times, and I shouldn't have to search for anything. I'm already doing 3 or 4 things at once, I don't need another distraction in the form a different UI that is completely out of context for everything I do. They even changed the simplest of context menus. Everyone has their opinions and you are entitled to yours, but to me the whole of Metro is hogwash, useless glitter and mind games. Sadly the most interesting part of Windows 8 is the under the hood changes, and performance improvements, but that gets lost in translation.

For the VB6 argument, I always understood why they did it, and what that would bring, I was all for it. VB6 apps still run. No damage to anyone. Let's just say that VB6 programmers were never the best and the brightest, I know, I once was one. What horrified me about VB6 code (horrible code structure, dangerous API workaround around language limitations, etc...) made "veteran" VB6 coders completely happy. They got somewhat decent from VBA and VB6 over the years, and then didn't want to learn more when .Net came out (understandably at first, but not quite later on...).

 

[jmcilhinney]

I prefer knowing exactly where my apps are, not having to search for them in the first place. The whole thing hinges on immersion, when you break immersion you lose concentration. Exactly why (ironically) you cannot use any tablet or cellphone while driving, including Windows phones... Granted there is no injury involved here, but opening the damned start screen for me is too much. My desktop needs to be right there, at all times, and I shouldn't have to search for anything. I'm already doing 3 or 4 things at once, I don't need another distraction in the form a different UI that is completely out of context for everything I do. They even changed the simplest of context menus. Everyone has their opinions and you are entitled to yours, but to me the whole of Metro is hogwash, useless glitter and mind games. Sadly the most interesting part of Windows 8 is the under the hood changes, and performance improvements, but that gets lost in translation.

I'm afraid that this all just sounds like digging your heels in because you don't like the look of something. You talked about productivity earlier and yet you cling to using a less-productive technique of finding apps in the Start Menu. The word "search" doesn't mean you rummaging around to find something. You do know where everything is on the Start and All Apps screens. Any searching is done for you by the system. It's actually less like a search than navigating the hierarchical structure of the Start Menu.

You draw a picture of yourself as having the attention span of a gnat. If a second or two in the Start screen is such an ordeal then how do you handle having to look something up on the web or open a book or look for something in a drawer? It sounds like you'd have to lie down for half an hour to recover. You don't need your desktop right there at all times but if that's so important to you then surely you've already got all your everyday apps pinned to the Task Bar and have shortcuts on the desktop for the slightly less regular ones. I know I do and I'm far less determined to never take my eyes off the desktop than you are.

On my work PC, the only two apps that I generally need to access another way are Notepad and Snipping Tool. That's actually on purpose because it's quicker to open them with a "search" than it is to do so via a shortcut. I hit Windows and type "snip" then Enter and the Snipping Tool is open in a second at most. Same goes for Notepad by typing "notep". Hey look: productivity improved!

I can understand that some people don't like the look of the Modern UI and I have no issue with that. I can understand that some people don't think that Windows 8 offers a compelling reason to upgrade from Windows 7 on a non-touch-enabled PC. What I do have an issue with is anyone who would upgrade to Windows 8/8.1 but doesn't because of the lack of a Start Menu. That truly is ridiculous. Something else I have an issue with is the fact that many people who don't know any better believe what they read in some places about the Modern UI being this great evil that will make their lives so much worse and being scared away from something that won't hurt them and may well benefit them. You said:

Maybe if I had the choice, I would have seen a nicely designed app somewhere that would have changed my mind about Metro and peeked my interest, maybe even switch to it, but now I won't, and none of the people for whom I fix up computers on weekends will either.

While I could be mistaken, that sounds to me like you've influenced others to avoid Windows 8. I wonder how many such people would have no issue with it or even like it if not affected by propaganda like "you have to make an extra 500 clicks a day". If they been told how they can open apps faster without the Start Menu instead then maybe they'd be a bit more enthused.

 

[Herman]

No one has any issue with it they are perfectly happy with Windows 7, and those that asked for Windows 8 tried it and made me put back Windows 7 on it.

You really don't have to get your panties all bunched up, you seem to have a very hard time accepting the fact that others around you have an opinion that differs yours. Windows 8 being a piece of crap is an opinion shared by half the population, stop being all proud and defending about it... Personally I think Windows 8 was Microsoft's answer to piracy, make it so bad no one will download it...

This thread should probably get locked, and moved to off-topic or something, I don't see anything constructive coming out of it soon...

 

[jmcilhinney]

I haven't read your last post and nor do I intend to. I don't think it will do anybody any good. I just wanted to apologise for getting so carried away on a topic that was off-topic in the first place.

 

[JohnH]

Thread split, posts off-topic.

I still use Vista by the way, and have long since made adjustments to my usage that resembles a lot of how you describe W8 works. I rarely use start menu, use a combination of my own app menu and desktop shortcuts, and when I do open start menu I find things a lot faster by typing a few search chars. Still looking forward to try W8 and the newer VS versions that require something newer than Vista, but it all have to wait until I can justify a new PC purchase.